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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with dr. Suzanne Gordon about feel notes

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from the light an ethnographic study of

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the meaning and significance of

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near-death experiences give people a

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sense for some of these cases maybe

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start with the the atheist I was let's

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start with Eric what happened to him was

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he was on the sailboat of a friend of

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his who was a cardiologist conveniently

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enough sailing out on the Chesapeake Bay

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not far from where I live and there was

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some accident he ended up falling

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overboard and it was a relatively cold

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day so he he died you know and he

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watched the resuscitation efforts on the

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boat below him and then he was like

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floating away floating away he said I

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was very happy wherever I was going I'm

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not sure where I was going but I was

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floating away and he said was very happy

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to do that

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I wasn't struggling to live you know I

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was very happy to keep going and see

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what happened but they kept working on

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him and they give up here young and I

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work on him some more and some more and

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finally they did bring him back and he

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didn't become a religious guy or

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anything that's fascinating on the other

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hand you know there's a completely

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different way to read that account that

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I do and that's that to a certain extent

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it's the ultimate attachment to a

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worldview you know so it's I'm an

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atheist I have this transformative

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experience and now I know that life goes

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on right because he does say that at the

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end he goes okay I know that physically

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go on and I didn't know that before and

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I didn't know that before right so

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really that totally blows apart your

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worldview but I see somebody who's not

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willing to go very far but it's the

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ultimate agnostic you know like I

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encounter so often sighs well you know

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can't know for sure don't really know

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we're kind of in the middle versus if

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you look at how our culture defines life

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this experience should have completely

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blown its mind

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode we welcome dr. Suzanne Gordon

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who has over several years plugged away

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at some rather amazing work into the

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near-death experience Suzanne is a

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fantastic guest I enjoy talking to her

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only wish we could have gone on for

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hours and hours more there's so many

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other interesting areas to her work that

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we weren't able to get into but I do

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hope you appreciate what she brings here

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and as I mentioned again in just a

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minute if you are interested in

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Suzanne's work then you might want to

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also check out the interview that she

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did over at mysterious universe it

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really gets into some more depth on the

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cases some just amazing stories that I

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think you might want to check out but in

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the meantime enjoy this conversation

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with dr. Suzanne Gordon today we welcome

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dr. Suzanne Gordon - skeptic Oh dr.

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Gordon is on the faculty at the

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University of Maryland and is here to

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talk about among other things her rather

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amazing dissertation titled field notes

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from the light an ethnographic study of

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the meaning and significance of

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near-death experiences dr. Gordon it's a

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great pleasure to welcome you to skeptic

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oh thanks so much for joining me

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well I'm glad to be here Alex thanks for

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inviting me well I thought we should

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start obviously talking about this

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research because first I have to say

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that for anyone who hasn't heard of you

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or your work I can give them a great

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reference point and that's a tremendous

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interview you gave to the folks a

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mysterious universe it's episode seven

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one three if anyone is interested and it

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really opened me up to a lot of things

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related to this work you've done in

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ethnographic that is cultural

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anthropology in applying some of those

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methodologies to this topic of

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near-death experience so can you just

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kind of give us a high-level view of

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what you did for your PhD dissertation

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well the interesting thing about

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ethnography well one of them is that

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it's very time intensive it's the method

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of cultural anthropology originated in

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anthropology of participant observation

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fieldwork

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so I spent well a decade on the

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dissertation but there were two two-year

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periods of full-time fieldwork so that I

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was spending more time with with other

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people who had had near-death

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experiences than I was with my own

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family and my approach person-centered

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ethnography or life history narrative

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based ethnography to find out what the

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meaning of near-death experiences were

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to those who had them rather than to the

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quote experts by saying if you were

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gonna tell someone your life story or

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write your autobiography how would you

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organize it into chapters yeah I think

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that was a very interesting part of what

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I came to understand what you did and

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that's that one of the barriers you

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found was you had to use this like an

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NDE phrase can you tell us about that

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and how you came to understand that and

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I guess more importantly how that

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factors into the larger mission that you

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find yourself on in terms of education

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from a medical standpoint about this

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experience this phenomenon yeah let's

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see the the original thing that happened

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was the very first informant I just had

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assumed at the point at which I started

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my research I didn't realize the

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experience I'd had at the age of three

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thirty six and a half months exactly was

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a near-death experience so I didn't even

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know that I was an experiencer I knew my

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mother had been so so wait III have to

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stop you there Suzanne because as you've

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kind of wandered into that personal

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story it's fascinating

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why don't you spend a minute and tell us

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first about your mother's near-death

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experience because that I guess to you

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and your formative years was so

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in-your-face but then also how you came

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to

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and about your own near-death experience

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because I don't want people to run off

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and go oh wow this is really kind of

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kooky there's all these connections when

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you explain it it's really very

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understandable and ordinary in a way in

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terms of the way these things unraveled

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well I was 10 and my mother bled my

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mother miscarried and and and

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hemorrhaged and they died on the table

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when they were prepping her for surgery

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so when she came home from the hospital

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she came over the hospital I was at

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school and when I I wasn't even all the

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way in her in the bed that my parents

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bedroom when she said Suzanne I'm not

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afraid of death anymore I know where we

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go and she had been her mom a diamond

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she was four so she was really just sort

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of terrified of death she was one of

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those mothers that if you were in the

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emergency room you know getting sewn up

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or something instead of being there

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beside you she'd be in the hall with her

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head between her knees so that was a

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profound statement and then she she

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described to me the beautiful colors and

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the sounds and everything and she

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realized that she said I scared the hell

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out of the doctors up here because I

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guess they must have pronounced or

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they'd stopped trying to resuscitate her

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and covered resuscitate her and covered

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her up and everything and she said she

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wasn't looking at me at that moment she

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said well I wasn't gonna come back and

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then she realized she's talking to her

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ten-year-old daughter I mean I didn't

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want to come back but I heard you kids

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calling me and her N'Diaye was one of

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those you know all the bells and

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whistles many of the components and so

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when Raymond Moody's book published

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almost two decades later our you know

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over 15 years later I said mom mom look

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that was a near-death experience she had

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still completely I remember thinking

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about the experience I had during

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surgery when I was three years old

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reading Moody's book but because there

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was no Tunnel in my experience like

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everyone else in my study like everyone

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in my study I should say I therefore

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knew that that experience had not been a

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near-death experience right right and

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you say that because you had this strong

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by

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of these fixed parameters that had to

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exist for it to be a near-death

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experience right so fast forward to your

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researching and then that becomes this

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like a near-death experience right my

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very first informant at some point in

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the research she had been referred to me

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by someone who knew she'd had a

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near-death experience but like everyone

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in my research near in de or near-death

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experience was not only not her

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preferred label for the experience which

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led me to see that you know the model

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was really being problematized by the

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the method that allowed me to get people

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who weren't already necessarily self

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labeled near-death experiencers i found

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people the way ethnographers do by using

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my own networks letting people know i'm

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interested in people who had near-death

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experiences so the first time i used the

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term in de with this informant this

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research participant she said what's an

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NDE so right away because one thing you

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do in ethnography is you try to not lead

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the informant in any way which is why i

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chose the life history method where i I

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never asked about their NDE or called it

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an NDE after that first inform I would

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introduce myself to people by saying you

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know I'm interested in people who had

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experiences like near-death experience

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is realizing that many people like me

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were unable unwilling you know dead set

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against whatever using that label so

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that became important that I wasn't

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finding people who were you know already

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were self labeled near-death experience

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just some of my people knew about that

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stuff some of them literally did not

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know about it by that because you know I

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started my research in the in the mid

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90s and by that time you know in the in

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the mid 70s late 70s everybody knew what

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an NDE was but because the model is

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flawed for the experience in my opinion

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as time went on you know we began to get

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this conflation of close brushes with

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death and near-death experiences so

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you'd hear things like the Redskins you

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know had an NDE in the fourth quarter

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and stuff like that so it was important

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to find people who you know we're not in

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acculturated into the culture of

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near-death

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so ultimately what I ended up with was

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with some 50 people ten of whom I

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they're more of their life histories in

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my dissertation so they became like my

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foregrounded informants but of those 50

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I think I don't have my tables right in

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front of me now but about half of them I

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found through irons so they became sort

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of my background group at the other half

275
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on my own and and it would became very

276
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interesting because the model the Indy

277
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model became very problematized and and

278
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as a result of that research realizing

279
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that we needed a separate organization

280
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for the benefit of experiencers we ended

281
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up two or three of us Elaine stout Linda

282
00:11:58,990 --> 00:11:53,990
Jacqueline and I think at the very

283
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beginning began working toward and have

284
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now found and assist the American Center

285
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for the integration of spiritually

286
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transformative experiences ACI ste to

287
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benefit them and and the first thing we

288
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saw was we need to educate mental health

289
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professionals spiritual guidance

290
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professional pastoral counselors we need

291
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to educate the the health care and

292
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mental health care providers of people

293
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who have these experiences so they don't

294
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get misdiagnosed with some mental

295
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disorder as a result of talking about

296
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their experience mm-hmm you know I think

297
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that also ties into another question I

298
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wanted to ask you and that's about the

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role that your advisors played your

300
00:12:51,069 --> 00:12:47,059
academic advisors played in your

301
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dissertation well probably well the most

302
00:12:56,499 --> 00:12:54,279
helpful John Couey who's a

303
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anthropologist whose interests like mine

304
00:13:02,920 --> 00:12:59,259
or culture and consciousness was my

305
00:13:05,079 --> 00:13:02,930
mentor and my committee chair for my

306
00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:05,089
dissertation so that was tremendous

307
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:08,120
Bruce Grayson was was kind enough to be

308
00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:09,680
on my committee traveling up for

309
00:13:14,110 --> 00:13:12,649
meetings from UVA which was great

310
00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:14,120
because he's the Dean of near-death

311
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studies and by the way is going to be

312
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:18,649
our keynote speaker at this October's

313
00:13:23,980 --> 00:13:20,810
conference and Dan Levin

314
00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:23,990
and who was the founding president of

315
00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:25,940
the association of deaf education and

316
00:13:30,130 --> 00:13:27,920
counseling who was there early on with

317
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that group people like Robert Caston BOM

318
00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:31,310
Elizabeth kubler-ross

319
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:33,980
the early pioneers of the death

320
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:37,040
awareness movement when Dan had read my

321
00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:39,770
comp and bless his heart gave me high

322
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:42,080
honors on it which was a big thrill he

323
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:43,730
didn't say a word about oh this is good

324
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:45,200
Suzanne or anything just tossed it

325
00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:47,120
across his desk at me and said you need

326
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,030
an organization for these people so yo

327
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,920
Layne stout and I who was a former

328
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president of the International

329
00:13:58,090 --> 00:13:55,610
Association of near-death studies when

330
00:13:59,680 --> 00:13:58,100
we were early on you know drawing up the

331
00:14:01,930 --> 00:13:59,690
incorpor Articles of Incorporation and

332
00:14:05,950 --> 00:14:01,940
everything we would refer to Dan as sort

333
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,960
of the the father of of assist because I

334
00:14:10,390 --> 00:14:07,760
didn't want to start an association I'd

335
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:10,400
actually done a lot of consulting work

336
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:14,450
with or with associations and I knew a

337
00:14:19,570 --> 00:14:18,050
lot about you know about Association

338
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:19,580
work and I wasn't that interested in

339
00:14:25,090 --> 00:14:22,010
doing it but I knew he was right I knew

340
00:14:28,330 --> 00:14:25,100
he was right right so one thing that

341
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:28,340
fascinates me about that is taking aside

342
00:14:33,610 --> 00:14:30,500
the health education needs and the needs

343
00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:33,620
of the experiencers which is I don't

344
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:35,720
mean at all to diminish that in my tone

345
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:37,490
was kind of being playful there because

346
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:39,230
there's a huge need and the problem you

347
00:14:43,030 --> 00:14:41,210
mentioned about misdiagnosis is just so

348
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:43,040
sad to think that someone could have

349
00:14:48,220 --> 00:14:45,440
this completely transformative

350
00:14:50,650 --> 00:14:48,230
life-changing experience and then when

351
00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:50,660
they do seek help the person on the

352
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:52,670
other end is so uneducated that they're

353
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:55,010
completely misdiagnosed and maybe giving

354
00:14:58,540 --> 00:14:57,050
a medicine or maybe sending them down

355
00:15:01,240 --> 00:14:58,550
some rabbit hole that's really gonna

356
00:15:03,340 --> 00:15:01,250
cause major upset in their life so that

357
00:15:05,140 --> 00:15:03,350
is so real and so important but I want

358
00:15:07,630 --> 00:15:05,150
to pull it back a completely different

359
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:07,640
level of kind of the skeptical angle

360
00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:09,410
that we look at things sometimes and

361
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:11,150
that's that you know when I was talking

362
00:15:15,010 --> 00:15:13,730
to Raymond Moody I don't know a few

363
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:15,020
months back he's been on the show a

364
00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:17,600
couple times but he said this thing

365
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:19,180
about you know in the ease or

366
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:23,000
pre-scientific and I kind of know what

367
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:25,370
he means in one way but the other thing

368
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:27,530
that struck me when I was you know going

369
00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:29,690
through your research is there's nothing

370
00:15:34,060 --> 00:15:32,420
pre-scientific about dr. Suzanne

371
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:34,070
Gordon's work I mean

372
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:38,360
here is just a fertile area for research

373
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:40,730
and some of you just dives in and really

374
00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:42,170
you know you just can't everywhere you

375
00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:43,550
reach well there's an opportunity over

376
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:46,100
here for both further study but also for

377
00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:47,870
helping people there's an opportunity

378
00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:49,940
over here these are all methods that are

379
00:15:54,850 --> 00:15:52,400
well-established within the educational

380
00:15:56,350 --> 00:15:54,860
community cultural anthropology that's

381
00:15:59,410 --> 00:15:56,360
how we look at things da da da da

382
00:16:01,570 --> 00:15:59,420
there's nothing pre-scientific about

383
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:01,580
what you're doing other than the fact

384
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:03,710
that there's about a thousand research

385
00:16:08,530 --> 00:16:06,320
questions here that you could never get

386
00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:08,540
into and I'm wondering what thoughts you

387
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:12,550
might have about how we've kind of

388
00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:15,440
tainted this field and we haven't done

389
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:17,630
it but other people have tainted it

390
00:16:21,070 --> 00:16:18,800
because it doesn't fit within their

391
00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:21,080
worldview and how you play with this

392
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:24,830
idea of what role science can really

393
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:28,610
have in overcoming this stigma that is

394
00:16:33,370 --> 00:16:30,560
associated still a little bit with

395
00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:33,380
near-death experience research well I'm

396
00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:35,480
not sure what dr. moody even meant by

397
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,460
that statement I mean other than maybe

398
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:39,920
in you know these experiences have

399
00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:43,870
certainly predated Western science but

400
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:47,750
let me give you dance sort of fix on

401
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:50,720
this piece I think is interesting Dan

402
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:54,410
Levitan before he died two years ago

403
00:16:59,170 --> 00:16:57,920
this month actually I said Dan you

404
00:17:01,240 --> 00:16:59,180
weren't all that interested in the

405
00:17:04,420 --> 00:17:01,250
mental health needs of experiencers were

406
00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:04,430
you you see you see this you know these

407
00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:06,320
millions of Peyman we are estimating

408
00:17:11,170 --> 00:17:08,600
like maybe 13 million somewhere between

409
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:11,180
four and eight percent based on the

410
00:17:16,420 --> 00:17:14,000
Gallup polls of the population studied

411
00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:16,430
have probably had NDEs which puts the us

412
00:17:21,670 --> 00:17:19,339
somewhere up you know some more to 12

413
00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:21,680
and 20 million or something let's put it

414
00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:24,230
let's put a brief exclamation point on

415
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:28,130
that so they're not 10 to 20 million

416
00:17:34,060 --> 00:17:30,650
people in the United States walking

417
00:17:36,970 --> 00:17:34,070
around by our best estimate using the

418
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,980
best surveying methods we have that have

419
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:38,480
had a near-death experience that's a

420
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:40,310
significant number of people write it

421
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:43,070
right exactly and Dan had written a book

422
00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:47,010
called um he coined the term horrendous

423
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:50,340
meaning intentional meaning intentional

424
00:17:58,190 --> 00:17:53,820
destruction of human life or biosphere

425
00:18:01,160 --> 00:17:58,200
ecosystem life and he wrote this book

426
00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:01,170
called horrendous death health and and

427
00:18:04,370 --> 00:18:03,180
and social well-being or something

428
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:04,380
there's a new edition with a slightly

429
00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:06,240
different title and this was a policy

430
00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:09,300
book that Dan edited and his whole point

431
00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:11,880
was the United States is though is

432
00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:14,520
history's greatest manufacturer and

433
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:17,190
exporter of the weaponry of horrendous

434
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:20,850
death both militarily and in terms of

435
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:23,760
development development in quotes so he

436
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:26,880
admitted it yeah he said he saw these

437
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:29,310
millions of people and in every

438
00:18:35,780 --> 00:18:32,310
population where they've been studied as

439
00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:35,790
sort of this uncalled up army of global

440
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:37,860
well because looking at the after

441
00:18:42,170 --> 00:18:39,210
effects of NDEs

442
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:42,180
he he in the book he had identified from

443
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:44,910
all these policy experts perspectives

444
00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:47,910
the value shifts that we needed to make

445
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:51,660
in order to preserve the ability of our

446
00:18:55,250 --> 00:18:53,370
grandchildren be able to breathe

447
00:18:57,650 --> 00:18:55,260
I mean his concern was look what we're

448
00:18:59,690 --> 00:18:57,660
doing to the planet you know with with

449
00:19:01,250 --> 00:18:59,700
this horrendous death machinery look

450
00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:01,260
what we're doing to the the health of

451
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:04,470
the planet and so he identified these

452
00:19:10,910 --> 00:19:07,170
set of values that that we needed to

453
00:19:15,050 --> 00:19:10,920
change from being materialistic to being

454
00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:15,060
altruistic to having a concern rather

455
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:17,670
than making money perhaps having a

456
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:20,130
concern for global wellness the wellness

457
00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:22,140
of the planet and social well-being and

458
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:24,780
and all the values I mean I did find

459
00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:26,220
sort of there was sort of this direct

460
00:19:31,940 --> 00:19:30,360
match between these values and and the

461
00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:31,950
value shifts that are among the

462
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:33,990
after-effects of near-death experiences

463
00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:36,330
so he admitted you know he saw these

464
00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:38,460
peace aw that these people needed

465
00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:42,300
support in an organizational platform to

466
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:44,790
become visible to culture tell you what

467
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:46,650
let's jump into because I think we're

468
00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:48,630
talking around about the research and

469
00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:50,460
and which is great because I think it's

470
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:52,920
great to have this background but give

471
00:19:57,980 --> 00:19:55,950
people a sense for some of these cases

472
00:20:00,169 --> 00:19:57,990
because they're just amazing there's an

473
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:00,179
amazing variety of cases that you talk

474
00:20:06,019 --> 00:20:02,129
about in your dissertation maybe start

475
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:06,029
with the the atheist I love I was let's

476
00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:09,210
start with Eric he everybody choose

477
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:11,220
their own pseudonyms because that's very

478
00:20:15,889 --> 00:20:13,110
informative about why people choose what

479
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:15,899
pseudonyms and why well this guy chose

480
00:20:19,549 --> 00:20:17,730
Eric because Eric Clapton he was a

481
00:20:23,269 --> 00:20:19,559
guitar player and you really liked Eric

482
00:20:27,049 --> 00:20:23,279
Clapton and the interesting thing to me

483
00:20:28,909 --> 00:20:27,059
about his account was I think it it it

484
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:28,919
points to why it's important for

485
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:31,049
experience it's just experiencers to

486
00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:33,090
become visible it was like he said it

487
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:35,070
didn't answer all my questions in other

488
00:20:39,409 --> 00:20:37,919
words it didn't make him a believer you

489
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:39,419
know or anything he was totally

490
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:41,610
disinterested in my research if it

491
00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:43,470
hadn't been that I had known his son was

492
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:46,289
a neighbor of mine and I would never

493
00:20:49,549 --> 00:20:47,730
have had an eric in the study because as

494
00:20:51,109 --> 00:20:49,559
his son said you got to interview my

495
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:51,119
father because he's the most unlike

496
00:20:55,159 --> 00:20:54,090
other near-death experiencers you know

497
00:20:58,580 --> 00:20:55,169
that I can imagine

498
00:21:02,149 --> 00:20:58,590
tell us about his case well he just well

499
00:21:05,419 --> 00:21:02,159
what happened to him was he was on the

500
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:05,429
sailboat and of his friend of his who

501
00:21:10,399 --> 00:21:08,210
was a cardiologist conveniently enough

502
00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:10,409
sailing out on the Chesapeake Bay not

503
00:21:15,289 --> 00:21:13,289
far from where I live and there was some

504
00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:15,299
accident he was doing something at the

505
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:16,830
side of the boat and ended up falling

506
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:18,690
overboard and it was a relatively cold

507
00:21:26,629 --> 00:21:22,850
day so he was burdened by clothing and

508
00:21:28,430 --> 00:21:26,639
he died you know and he watched he

509
00:21:30,409 --> 00:21:28,440
watched the resuscitation efforts on the

510
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:30,419
boat below him and then he was like

511
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,580
floating away floating away and it

512
00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:34,320
wouldn't the some of the funny things

513
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:37,230
were how people will describe the same

514
00:21:42,109 --> 00:21:40,110
elements but differently very often and

515
00:21:43,999 --> 00:21:42,119
his was really extreme because you don't

516
00:21:47,899 --> 00:21:44,009
know what most people say this beautiful

517
00:21:51,169 --> 00:21:47,909
glowing loving light and these wonderful

518
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:51,179
sounds right Eric said the light was too

519
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:54,179
bright and the sounds were too loud and

520
00:21:59,119 --> 00:21:56,129
then he said as soon as he thought that

521
00:22:02,480 --> 00:21:59,129
it all modulated became very comfortable

522
00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:02,490
and he was just he didn't see God you

523
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:04,350
know and and I don't know that any of my

524
00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:07,169
informant saw identified the being of

525
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:12,350
light you know in in theistic terms or

526
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:14,460
specific religious term

527
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:17,760
but he just said I he said I was very

528
00:22:21,380 --> 00:22:19,980
happy wherever I was going I'm not sure

529
00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:21,390
where I was going but I was floating

530
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:22,830
away and he said it was very happy to do

531
00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:23,280
that

532
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:26,070
I wasn't struggling to live you know I

533
00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:28,110
was very happy to keep going and see

534
00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:30,750
what happened and but the the reason

535
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:32,430
they kept working on him and they give

536
00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:34,050
up here young and I work on him some

537
00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:35,460
more and some more and finally they did

538
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:38,580
bring him back and and he wasn't Tom

539
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,170
didn't become a religious guy or

540
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:42,960
anything I think his wife and I both

541
00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:44,940
think that many of the choices he made

542
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:48,300
afterwards probably did reflect changes

543
00:22:53,210 --> 00:22:50,370
from that experience it was really funny

544
00:22:54,650 --> 00:22:53,220
because his wife fit more I mean the

545
00:22:56,270 --> 00:22:54,660
only reason he even knew do it was a

546
00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:56,280
near-death experiences because she had

547
00:23:00,530 --> 00:22:58,650
read Ray Moody's book you know and

548
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:00,540
pointed it out to him but if it hadn't

549
00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:01,770
been for his son and his wife

550
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:03,870
I mean he had no interest apologizing

551
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:05,610
throughout the process you know I'm I'm

552
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:07,140
sorry I'm just I'm just really not very

553
00:23:12,020 --> 00:23:10,080
interested and I'm and I keep I keep

554
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:12,030
reassuring him you know I don't care

555
00:23:15,620 --> 00:23:13,110
it's fine you know

556
00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:15,630
that's fascinating on the other hand you

557
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:17,100
know there's a completely different way

558
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:19,020
to read that account but I do and that's

559
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:20,970
that to a certain extent it's the

560
00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:23,310
ultimate attachment to a worldview you

561
00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:26,310
know so it's I'm an atheist I have this

562
00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:28,140
transformative experience and now I know

563
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:30,390
that life goes on right because he does

564
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:31,890
say that at the end he goes okay I know

565
00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:36,210
that physical go on and I didn't know

566
00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:37,830
that before and I didn't know that

567
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:39,720
before right so really that totally

568
00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:43,170
blows apart your worldview but I see

569
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:46,140
somebody who's not willing to go very

570
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:48,240
far but he's the ultimate agnostic you

571
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:50,460
know like I encounter so often sighs

572
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:52,410
well you know can't know for sure don't

573
00:23:57,620 --> 00:23:53,690
really know we're kind of in the middle

574
00:24:01,720 --> 00:23:57,630
versus if you look at how our culture

575
00:24:05,210 --> 00:24:01,730
defines life this experience should have

576
00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:05,220
completely blown its mind should have

577
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:06,870
blown his mind and it didn't so I think

578
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:09,120
there's kind of two ways to take that

579
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:12,030
and I wonder what thoughts you have on

580
00:24:17,630 --> 00:24:15,080
that in general and on this topic of

581
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:17,640
personal transformation and how that's

582
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:19,410
different for different people depending

583
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:22,110
on where they're coming from or maybe

584
00:24:26,270 --> 00:24:24,450
there's other reasons why it why it is

585
00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:26,280
do you know I think that's that's really

586
00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:28,020
important you know your

587
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:32,430
your previous experiences in life and

588
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:35,640
your cultural beliefs and values and and

589
00:24:41,990 --> 00:24:37,530
I did talk about this in my dissertation

590
00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:42,000
because he had had a very really awful

591
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:45,780
sort of awful awful childhood and had a

592
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:48,960
lot of issues and and I think you know

593
00:24:55,130 --> 00:24:52,050
for him and I think that those are the

594
00:24:58,610 --> 00:24:55,140
people they're probably many many many

595
00:25:00,920 --> 00:24:58,620
more people like Eric out there that are

596
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:00,930
not gonna turn up to near death studies

597
00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:02,910
or assist do you know what I mean that

598
00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:05,820
we don't hear from but but I think his

599
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:09,030
case speaks to the need for experiences

600
00:25:14,660 --> 00:25:11,610
to be heard harking back to your

601
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:14,670
interview with Chris Carter you know

602
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:16,170
where he kept talking about the third

603
00:25:21,050 --> 00:25:19,410
rail you know that we've got science on

604
00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:21,060
one side and religion on the other well

605
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:23,340
I want the third rail to be the voice of

606
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:25,530
experiencers themselves because I think

607
00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:28,320
they their interpretations of the

608
00:25:34,550 --> 00:25:32,280
meanings of their experience speak back

609
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:34,560
both to religion and to science and

610
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:37,110
don't let us fall into these sort of

611
00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:41,250
simplistic either/or versions of what's

612
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:43,680
real you know but then again they let us

613
00:25:49,910 --> 00:25:47,730
fall into this soup of complete chaos in

614
00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:49,920
terms of coming to any understanding of

615
00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:51,900
this you know I go back to the story you

616
00:25:58,460 --> 00:25:55,860
mentioned about I came back I heard you

617
00:26:01,940 --> 00:25:58,470
kids calling and I came back for you

618
00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:01,950
which is a wonderful story that we all I

619
00:26:07,790 --> 00:26:05,310
think take in and go oh wow isn't that

620
00:26:09,950 --> 00:26:07,800
neat and the love connection button bond

621
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:09,960
between a mother and her kids but

622
00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:12,510
there's a million questions that fall

623
00:26:19,370 --> 00:26:16,260
from that about the nature of this

624
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:19,380
afterlife I mean and just just for just

625
00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:21,530
to add on to that before we move on

626
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:24,840
every woman in my study who had had

627
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:27,210
small children at the time of the NDE

628
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:31,440
had some version of that rationale for

629
00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:32,850
why they were back but what does that

630
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:34,620
mean and what does that mean and why and

631
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:36,240
men didn't have that or why didn't men

632
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:37,200
have that what are the cultural

633
00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:38,760
differences you know take that one step

634
00:26:41,450 --> 00:26:40,260
further what does that mean about the

635
00:26:43,940 --> 00:26:41,460
nature of

636
00:26:46,430 --> 00:26:43,950
the afterlife of this other realm of

637
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:46,440
this higher consciousness is it is it

638
00:26:49,910 --> 00:26:47,970
that random that you're just kind of

639
00:26:51,890 --> 00:26:49,920
well I could come back I could not come

640
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:51,900
back oh this is wonderful it's great oh

641
00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:53,790
but I have the kids what are obligations

642
00:27:00,460 --> 00:26:57,000
to this life to this world to this

643
00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:00,470
material existence you know I mean

644
00:27:06,050 --> 00:27:03,180
mansoni more questions that really seem

645
00:27:08,780 --> 00:27:06,060
it will seem impossible to answer even

646
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:08,790
if we use the accounts and try and

647
00:27:12,110 --> 00:27:10,710
compile them and sort them and system I

648
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:12,120
don't know that we're ever going to get

649
00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:14,310
much closer to that and I think that is

650
00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:17,460
what ultimately people's heads spin

651
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:19,230
enough and then they kind of feel a need

652
00:27:25,250 --> 00:27:22,320
to grab on to one rail science or the

653
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,260
other rail you know religion or some

654
00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:27,840
kind of spiritual belief because that

655
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:31,080
third rail it's nonsensical in a lot of

656
00:27:38,150 --> 00:27:35,490
ways well in pre quantum physics it

657
00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:38,160
would be nonsensical and to religion

658
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:41,430
unless you're indie happen to align with

659
00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:44,640
the precepts of a particular religion

660
00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:46,590
which many of them do I mean we can't we

661
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:48,630
can't gloss over that we can't gloss

662
00:27:55,130 --> 00:27:51,930
over that one many of them do but even

663
00:27:58,460 --> 00:27:55,140
more importantly almost all of them have

664
00:28:00,170 --> 00:27:58,470
this element of a moral imperative of

665
00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:00,180
some yeah whether it's just some

666
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:03,390
connection to good or a connection to

667
00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:06,570
love or specific instructions to do well

668
00:28:13,550 --> 00:28:10,200
so you know that moral imperative is is

669
00:28:15,470 --> 00:28:13,560
another part of this third rail that we

670
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:15,480
can't really process and we can't even

671
00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:17,850
fit it into back the mother wants to go

672
00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:19,830
back to their to their children but what

673
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:22,380
she doesn't want to go to God or what I

674
00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:25,200
mean no nobody want nobody I talked to

675
00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:27,660
wanted to come back nobody wanted to

676
00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:29,400
come back but you know when you were

677
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:30,870
talking about that you know well why do

678
00:28:34,910 --> 00:28:33,330
they come back reminded me this line of

679
00:28:37,070 --> 00:28:34,920
a poem and now I can't remember if it

680
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:37,080
was Wallace Stevenson's I can't remember

681
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:38,910
the author who was the author of this

682
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:41,370
poem was but the line I want to quote

683
00:28:46,430 --> 00:28:43,740
was love calls us to the things of this

684
00:28:47,210 --> 00:28:46,440
world love calls us to the things of

685
00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:47,220
this world

686
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:48,900
and I think that's what brought people

687
00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:52,410
back I mean it many people articulated

688
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:55,260
that you know the like

689
00:28:59,810 --> 00:28:58,050
one of the men in my study I called him

690
00:29:03,380 --> 00:28:59,820
Neil but it's Neville Johnston who's

691
00:29:05,770 --> 00:29:03,390
written a couple books and you know so

692
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:05,780
you know it's okay to mention his name

693
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:09,690
he was 27 and and he was offered the

694
00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:11,340
opportunity to stay and he was really

695
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:13,740
enjoying it I mean he's a really

696
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:16,530
interesting account really he was dead

697
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:18,600
for a while so there tends to be more

698
00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:20,460
narrative the longer that you're dead

699
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:24,030
but um he was only 27 when he died he

700
00:29:27,530 --> 00:29:25,650
hadn't really done anything yet

701
00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:27,540
this was his thinking that he reported

702
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:30,150
to me um that his you know he hadn't

703
00:29:35,270 --> 00:29:31,710
done anything yet it was mom's only

704
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:35,280
child and he was only 27 and so he too

705
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:37,890
felt obligated to come back right but

706
00:29:48,410 --> 00:29:40,110
Suzanne that we have the ultimate filter

707
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:48,420
on these accounts right I mean and the

708
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:51,360
other part that just again presents this

709
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:55,050
this problem is we hear two completely

710
00:30:00,260 --> 00:29:57,330
contradictory things we hear on one hand

711
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,270
there's this decision to come back to

712
00:30:06,020 --> 00:30:02,880
take care of things in this world and

713
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:06,030
then we hear equally at least I have and

714
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:08,130
I'm sure you have you've researches much

715
00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:10,190
more than I have these accounts of

716
00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:12,750
everything here is as it should be

717
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:15,990
everything is going to be okay all those

718
00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:18,690
questions you had about human suffering

719
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:21,270
why bad things happen to good people are

720
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:24,210
answered for people in this other state

721
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:26,880
of knowing and it all makes sense which

722
00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:29,190
would lead us to there's really no

723
00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:33,270
compelling need to do something you know

724
00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:35,700
it just kind of all works out and you're

725
00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:38,460
just evolving and Co evolving with the

726
00:30:42,290 --> 00:30:41,340
process aren't those ideas really I

727
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:42,300
don't want to say they're in conflict

728
00:30:47,890 --> 00:30:44,730
but they appear to be contradictory they

729
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:47,900
do so Wyatt why is it that way why do

730
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:50,310
you know why do people see this other

731
00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:53,820
side we're on some level or from some

732
00:30:59,660 --> 00:30:56,190
perspective it's all okay

733
00:31:02,090 --> 00:30:59,670
and yet the way these things change

734
00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:02,100
people's Long Knives there's the

735
00:31:08,110 --> 00:31:06,060
tendency to have a new or more

736
00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:08,120
pronounced sense of life mission

737
00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:09,240
responsibility

738
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:11,190
accountability to everyone on the planet

739
00:31:16,850 --> 00:31:14,910
and to the planet itself you know it is

740
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,860
interesting isn't it it is because if

741
00:31:21,230 --> 00:31:19,440
you see someplace that seems so

742
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:21,240
wonderful and where everything is

743
00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:24,210
clearly okay and even a lot of times

744
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:26,220
beings you know like with Danny and

745
00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:28,980
Brinkley you know he's done all these

746
00:31:33,290 --> 00:31:31,350
horrific things in his lifetime and yet

747
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:33,300
here's the being of being of light kind

748
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:35,970
of with its arm around Danny and

749
00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:37,530
shoulder sore saying it's okay it's okay

750
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:39,000
it's all a learning experience no

751
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:41,490
learning experience and yet you come

752
00:31:46,910 --> 00:31:44,670
back changed and wanting to do for

753
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,920
others and realizing that you know

754
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:49,440
things like we're here to learn and to

755
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:54,210
serve and to grow which are certainly

756
00:32:00,020 --> 00:31:56,610
wonderful things but then those lead us

757
00:32:02,090 --> 00:32:00,030
back to I think that spiritual fact our

758
00:32:05,090 --> 00:32:02,100
analogy of the rail back to our

759
00:32:08,780 --> 00:32:05,100
spiritual religious wisdom traditions

760
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:08,790
that put those foremost in terms of how

761
00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:11,940
we should live our lives - so I don't

762
00:32:19,210 --> 00:32:14,760
know I think this whole idea of NDE

763
00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:19,220
research is very tricky to balance this

764
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:23,100
science objectivity with with on the

765
00:32:29,150 --> 00:32:25,700
other hand what seems to me this

766
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:29,160
inevitable path towards the spiritual

767
00:32:33,530 --> 00:32:31,170
and I know that's kind of a problematic

768
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,540
word for you and and especially since

769
00:32:38,510 --> 00:32:35,600
you've started an organization about

770
00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:38,520
spiritually transformative experiences

771
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:40,950
wander into that territory telling I

772
00:32:51,050 --> 00:32:44,880
just that was not our for anyone's first

773
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:51,060
choice but our original idea for the for

774
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:53,610
the title was the center for the

775
00:32:58,820 --> 00:32:55,050
integration of transformative

776
00:33:01,130 --> 00:32:58,830
experiences period and that's that would

777
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:01,140
have spilled on site right see see ite

778
00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:03,120
and we all liked how that sounded but

779
00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:06,270
that domain that webs that address was

780
00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:09,300
taken well it's also it also doesn't it

781
00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:11,400
also doesn't ground you in anything I

782
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:13,470
mean it's kind of well I I didn't yeah

783
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:15,570
true but I I don't like that word

784
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:17,370
spiritual because I never liked that

785
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:18,690
word spiritual because it sounds like

786
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:20,970
there's spiritual over here and then

787
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:23,250
there's what the profane

788
00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:24,840
over here you know I teach about Native

789
00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:26,760
American cultures right so I loved your

790
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:32,430
Artie Clark interview but in M any

791
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:34,410
Native American cultures well how

792
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,360
sociology of religion would describe it

793
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:38,480
as they would say religion is Co extant

794
00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:41,640
with with the culture itself in other

795
00:33:47,090 --> 00:33:44,340
words these are cultures that never D

796
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:47,100
Lizzie owed or deal agha rate or however

797
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:51,930
you use that you know Latin verb so they

798
00:33:57,140 --> 00:33:54,810
don't have to re Lizzie oh and so we

799
00:33:59,360 --> 00:33:57,150
always struggle over that in studying

800
00:34:01,820 --> 00:33:59,370
Native American cultures because people

801
00:34:03,670 --> 00:34:01,830
refer to Native American religions and

802
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:03,680
that that's really a complete misnomer

803
00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:06,450
but so yeah I don't like the word

804
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:08,460
spiritual because somebody who's had one

805
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:11,340
of these experiences or however they get

806
00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:15,690
to have this mindset it's all spiritual

807
00:34:20,419 --> 00:34:18,300
if you want to look at it that way my

808
00:34:23,540 --> 00:34:20,429
own experience or understanding of my

809
00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:23,550
experience is more like quantum physics

810
00:34:29,629 --> 00:34:26,790
you know that it's consciousness that's

811
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:29,639
really sort of prime rather than matter

812
00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:32,879
so everything that we take to be outside

813
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:35,120
of us in the material world is actually

814
00:34:41,180 --> 00:34:38,639
inside this consciousness that we think

815
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:41,190
is transmitted by our brain and I'm much

816
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:43,889
more of the sort of quantum mechanics

817
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:45,990
for where that perspective takes you

818
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:48,770
that the brain is the receiver of

819
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:52,770
consciousness we have two problems in my

820
00:34:59,770 --> 00:34:55,679
opinion and one is you know what we do

821
00:35:03,260 --> 00:34:59,780
have a cultural paradigm that is totally

822
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:03,270
against anything spiritual in the

823
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:04,530
broadest sense of what you're talking

824
00:35:09,050 --> 00:35:06,930
about it is diametrically opposed to

825
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:09,060
that and I think when we avoid talking

826
00:35:13,580 --> 00:35:11,160
about the spiritual we're kind of

827
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:13,590
seating the debate to yes who really

828
00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:16,740
don't have a legitimacy a scientific

829
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:18,420
legitimacy in making those claims I mean

830
00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:20,970
if they had some kind of explanation for

831
00:35:24,980 --> 00:35:23,070
what's going on that made sense then

832
00:35:27,470 --> 00:35:24,990
maybe they have a seat at the table but

833
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,480
they don't and they reject it so I think

834
00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:29,280
we have that to sort out but the other

835
00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:30,870
thing I think we have to sort out that I

836
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:32,670
keep coming back to is you know this

837
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:34,410
little moral imperative thing I mean

838
00:35:40,289 --> 00:35:37,119
what is going on there we can process it

839
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:40,299
we want an abstracted - you know one

840
00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:42,700
consciousness and consciousness being

841
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:45,700
primary and not matter and all that but

842
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:49,380
there's still this connection with the

843
00:35:54,779 --> 00:35:51,880
experiencers on the broadest sense as

844
00:35:59,370 --> 00:35:54,789
far as I know have a sense of and that's

845
00:36:03,180 --> 00:35:59,380
that there is a higher order of goodness

846
00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:03,190
of love of connect and you know that to

847
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:07,089
me sounds like spiritual and just about

848
00:36:11,609 --> 00:36:09,970
any way you you want yes I agree but you

849
00:36:13,049 --> 00:36:11,619
know there's something interesting for

850
00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:13,059
you that I didn't really realize till I

851
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:16,630
started teaching courses in sociology of

852
00:36:23,789 --> 00:36:20,200
religion this really surprised me that

853
00:36:26,819 --> 00:36:23,799
it isn't scientists who don't have any

854
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:26,829
sort of spiritual belief I have this

855
00:36:30,989 --> 00:36:28,930
somewhere on a PowerPoint slide but so

856
00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:30,999
I'm gonna get I'm gonna just approximate

857
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:33,160
but something like eighty seven percent

858
00:36:38,279 --> 00:36:35,920
of hard scientists have some sort of

859
00:36:40,019 --> 00:36:38,289
spiritual belief system now isn't that

860
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:40,029
interesting you know the group of

861
00:36:44,849 --> 00:36:42,609
scientists who are the lowest in having

862
00:36:48,329 --> 00:36:44,859
any sort of belief system psychologists

863
00:36:50,460 --> 00:36:48,339
social scientists oh the whole range of

864
00:36:51,989 --> 00:36:50,470
social science because they sort of you

865
00:36:56,099 --> 00:36:51,999
know a sociology sort of starts out on

866
00:37:00,359 --> 00:36:56,109
Marxist you know materialist worldview

867
00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:00,369
principles but in actual but in so this

868
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:03,640
to leader this tension that we're always

869
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:05,380
talking about between you know the

870
00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:07,529
spiritual or the religious and the

871
00:37:12,210 --> 00:37:10,630
scientific in in and and when you look

872
00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:12,220
at that statistic well wait a minute

873
00:37:17,549 --> 00:37:14,470
eighty-seven I think that's the figure

874
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:17,559
I'd like to go look it up it eighty in

875
00:37:24,029 --> 00:37:22,089
the upper 80s percent of scientists have

876
00:37:27,390 --> 00:37:24,039
some sort of belief system now this may

877
00:37:30,089 --> 00:37:27,400
not be Orthodox belief systems but some

878
00:37:32,609 --> 00:37:30,099
sort of faith or belief system related

879
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:32,619
to this as you put it higher order of

880
00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:35,170
goodness or something spiritual

881
00:37:41,579 --> 00:37:38,230
something so it's interesting isn't it

882
00:37:44,009 --> 00:37:41,589
it's not science versus religion but

883
00:37:46,890 --> 00:37:44,019
it's the pre quantum scientific

884
00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:46,900
worldview versus the religious worldview

885
00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:50,500
neither of which do I hold and I worry

886
00:37:54,810 --> 00:37:52,180
you know as I can see sort of a new

887
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:54,820
scientific paradigm that's just as sort

888
00:38:00,960 --> 00:37:58,720
of cold and as hard scientists would say

889
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:00,970
you know bias-free and value neutral

890
00:38:05,610 --> 00:38:03,370
which we don't buy an ethnography by the

891
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:05,620
way and after Paulo because because

892
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:08,320
that's that's a statement of value to

893
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:10,240
say you know you know and and the

894
00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:12,640
utilitarian purposes to which science is

895
00:38:18,930 --> 00:38:16,180
being put and have been put which Lee

896
00:38:19,850 --> 00:38:18,940
can lead to very evil results you know

897
00:38:22,470 --> 00:38:19,860
what I mean

898
00:38:24,210 --> 00:38:22,480
anyway this week it's not as cut and

899
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:24,220
dried as it seems to be when we talk

900
00:38:30,510 --> 00:38:27,280
about these two rails but you know

901
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:30,520
that's why I want the culture of people

902
00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:34,000
who have lost the fear of death but are

903
00:38:40,170 --> 00:38:37,390
not necessarily espousing orthodoxy none

904
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:40,180
of my research participants changed

905
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:44,320
religions but to the last you know they

906
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:47,290
they certainly have a much like one of

907
00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:49,770
my informants I think Jenny I was her

908
00:38:57,720 --> 00:38:54,430
pseudonym said she had been taking she

909
00:39:00,600 --> 00:38:57,730
was something like Greek Orthodox she

910
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:00,610
was something else and she was she had a

911
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:01,930
good friend who was a Catholic priest

912
00:39:05,820 --> 00:39:03,730
who was giving her Cadiz catechism she

913
00:39:10,110 --> 00:39:05,830
was going to be baptized as a Catholic

914
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:10,120
and it it was her priest visiting her in

915
00:39:16,410 --> 00:39:13,390
the hospital who somehow put his face

916
00:39:18,930 --> 00:39:16,420
over hers that stopped her movement into

917
00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:18,940
the world of light for 18 months she

918
00:39:22,650 --> 00:39:20,830
said she hated him and she didn't know

919
00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:22,660
why she had no idea what had happened in

920
00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:25,000
her none whatsoever no idea what had

921
00:39:28,140 --> 00:39:26,590
happened to her and then but anyway

922
00:39:29,580 --> 00:39:28,150
after the experience she said well I

923
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:29,590
went ahead you know after I got over

924
00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:31,810
being mad at the priest and realized I'd

925
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:33,550
had a near-death experience someone had

926
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:35,290
found her crying in the restroom at work

927
00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:39,010
and realized by what she said that she'd

928
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:41,080
had a near-death experience and she just

929
00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:42,400
to clarify she was mad at the priest

930
00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:44,230
because he had prevented her from moving

931
00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:46,900
into this wonderful realm yeah yes

932
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:47,950
that's exactly right

933
00:39:53,070 --> 00:39:51,130
but she ultimately did get a baptized or

934
00:39:56,340 --> 00:39:53,080
whatever and and she said you know she

935
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:56,350
said I you know I know that you don't

936
00:39:59,550 --> 00:39:58,000
have to be Catholic to connect with what

937
00:40:01,590 --> 00:39:59,560
I've connected with through the

938
00:40:03,330 --> 00:40:01,600
near-death experience I'm it's just

939
00:40:05,790 --> 00:40:03,340
comfortable for me the incense

940
00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:05,800
the candles and the rosary but she said

941
00:40:09,690 --> 00:40:07,480
but my beliefs are very different now

942
00:40:11,970 --> 00:40:09,700
like she changed her whole backyard and

943
00:40:13,980 --> 00:40:11,980
made it into like a wildlife preserve

944
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:13,990
you know sowing wildflower seeds and no

945
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:15,730
chemicals and all that and she said and

946
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:17,890
I realize now I have to take care of of

947
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:20,560
nature even snakes and I don't even like

948
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:23,650
snakes I thought that was really really

949
00:40:29,490 --> 00:40:27,250
interesting so she yeah so I mean people

950
00:40:31,110 --> 00:40:29,500
you know stayed or went where they felt

951
00:40:32,970 --> 00:40:31,120
comfortable in another informant she's

952
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:32,980
more like me you know she's sort of

953
00:40:38,130 --> 00:40:34,810
sampled around all kinds of different

954
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:38,140
religions and paths and and everything

955
00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:42,640
but they don't it's religion or

956
00:40:49,020 --> 00:40:44,860
spirituality for them is no longer about

957
00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:49,030
particular sets of dogma or belief you

958
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:50,440
know let's touch on one thing that you

959
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:52,090
mentioned a phrase that always kind of

960
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:53,770
grabs my stomach a little bit and that's

961
00:40:58,770 --> 00:40:55,650
fear of death you know because I I

962
00:41:01,160 --> 00:40:58,780
understand the need to educate about

963
00:41:03,060 --> 00:41:01,170
fear death I understand the

964
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:03,070
transformation that people go through

965
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,450
that you mentioned from your research

966
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:06,400
and many near-death experience

967
00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:09,210
researchers have talked about that this

968
00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:11,590
transforms this experience this

969
00:41:15,630 --> 00:41:13,630
near-death experience transforms people

970
00:41:18,210 --> 00:41:15,640
and they no longer have this fear of

971
00:41:22,590 --> 00:41:18,220
death but I I wonder at the same time if

972
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:22,600
we've elevated this symptom ie fear of

973
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:26,110
death into something more that it is

974
00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:28,770
then too obscure kind of the underlying

975
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:31,390
cause which is kind of this worldview

976
00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:34,000
that we have that says oh you know you

977
00:41:39,060 --> 00:41:35,830
are this biological robot you are here

978
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:39,070
you are there and you know fear of death

979
00:41:45,420 --> 00:41:42,730
being the thing that we have to kind of

980
00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:45,430
overcome doesn't that kind of obscure

981
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:48,430
maybe the worldview shift that someone

982
00:41:55,110 --> 00:41:52,090
has to go through to really totally take

983
00:41:57,930 --> 00:41:55,120
in what it means to survive your death

984
00:42:01,260 --> 00:41:57,940
yeah yeah I totally agree I mean I don't

985
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:01,270
yeah you you can't think your way out of

986
00:42:06,990 --> 00:42:03,520
fear of death I don't think you can't

987
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:07,000
just use logic to walk out of fear of

988
00:42:10,350 --> 00:42:08,290
death that do you know what I mean

989
00:42:12,830 --> 00:42:10,360
that's apples and oranges or I don't

990
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:12,840
know I think you can to a certain

991
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:15,580
exposure I mean according to ken rings

992
00:42:18,450 --> 00:42:16,330
or

993
00:42:21,630 --> 00:42:18,460
and I'm heading toward Omega and Omega

994
00:42:25,020 --> 00:42:21,640
point that you know from the studies he

995
00:42:28,050 --> 00:42:25,030
did just exposure to near-death studies

996
00:42:30,330 --> 00:42:28,060
literature alleviated you know lessened

997
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:30,340
people's fear of death so yeah I think

998
00:42:34,740 --> 00:42:31,810
that's a good thing but no I agree with

999
00:42:37,170 --> 00:42:34,750
you I think it's the experience of

1000
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:37,180
finding yourself alive while you know

1001
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:39,330
somebody just pronounced your body dead

1002
00:42:44,580 --> 00:42:42,250
that that's a that's a cult there's

1003
00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:44,590
there's culture shock for you Alex right

1004
00:42:48,090 --> 00:42:46,270
so you have culture shock and I guess I

1005
00:42:49,650 --> 00:42:48,100
wasn't being totally clear maybe too

1006
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:49,660
abstract there but you know so you have

1007
00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:52,060
a fear of death no I no longer have fear

1008
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:54,040
of death because I reached this other

1009
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:54,730
realm

1010
00:43:00,090 --> 00:42:57,180
okay well now incorporate in

1011
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:00,100
reincarnation into that okay so you're

1012
00:43:04,830 --> 00:43:02,530
going to come back how many times are

1013
00:43:06,780 --> 00:43:04,840
you going to come back to incorporate

1014
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:06,790
into that karma if you believe in karma

1015
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:10,090
incorporate into that this idea of moral

1016
00:43:13,380 --> 00:43:11,920
imperative in that you have to do right

1017
00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:13,390
by other people or do right by the

1018
00:43:17,970 --> 00:43:14,830
parallel I mean there's a there's an

1019
00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:17,980
endless number of kind of worldview

1020
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:20,830
shifts that one can make either one way

1021
00:43:24,990 --> 00:43:21,610
or another

1022
00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:25,000
that all would factor into this fear of

1023
00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:27,550
death kind of question I understand fear

1024
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:30,100
of death because the way we've organized

1025
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:33,370
our society our culture is kind of a big

1026
00:43:37,650 --> 00:43:35,440
barrier but it seems to me like the tip

1027
00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:37,660
of the iceberg there's millions upon

1028
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:39,400
hundreds of millions of people around

1029
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:42,730
the planet who are already as you may

1030
00:43:48,450 --> 00:43:46,210
already passed the the you don't die and

1031
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:48,460
you survive your consciousness and they

1032
00:43:53,490 --> 00:43:50,560
still have fear of all sorts of things

1033
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:53,500
you know in terms of their karmic future

1034
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:56,710
or their reincarnation so it's it's it's

1035
00:44:00,690 --> 00:43:58,290
a lot more complicated than just

1036
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:00,700
overcoming fear of death isn't it I

1037
00:44:07,710 --> 00:44:05,200
don't know I mean I my experience with

1038
00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:07,720
this population is that they're a lot

1039
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:10,150
more fearful a lot less fearful about a

1040
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:13,510
lot of stuff than other folks right yeah

1041
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:15,970
like yeah yeah

1042
00:44:22,410 --> 00:44:19,330
because they've experienced a different

1043
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:22,420
let's say I don't even know I'm not sure

1044
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:25,150
I'm none of the terms right up there

1045
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:27,520
with spiritual planes of dimension a

1046
00:44:31,870 --> 00:44:29,390
planes of reality or dimension

1047
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:31,880
you know I don't know about many of our

1048
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:34,640
I mean all this terminology came out of

1049
00:44:41,290 --> 00:44:37,910
this already material worldview you know

1050
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:41,300
but but yeah but they've experienced a

1051
00:44:46,750 --> 00:44:44,470
different reality or you know an

1052
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:46,760
anthropologist is easier to say they

1053
00:44:50,380 --> 00:44:48,560
have experienced a different culture and

1054
00:44:52,690 --> 00:44:50,390
they have experienced profound culture

1055
00:44:56,170 --> 00:44:52,700
shock when they get there and profound

1056
00:45:00,340 --> 00:44:56,180
counter shock when they get back one of

1057
00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:00,350
my informants uh Chris her pseudonym was

1058
00:45:04,570 --> 00:45:02,390
she was she did the Christopher Reeves

1059
00:45:06,460 --> 00:45:04,580
thing as she put it and when she came

1060
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:06,470
back when she was back with her family

1061
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:08,990
she kept asking them things like why are

1062
00:45:12,910 --> 00:45:11,630
you talking to each other like this why

1063
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:12,920
are you talking to each other like this

1064
00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:14,960
and and and they thought she was crazy

1065
00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:17,150
because that's how they'd always talk to

1066
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:19,580
each other but suddenly she was hearing

1067
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:21,710
it very differently she's one of the

1068
00:45:26,350 --> 00:45:24,050
people who went for for counseling and I

1069
00:45:27,820 --> 00:45:26,360
should point out to that and and didn't

1070
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:27,830
get you know there was no connection

1071
00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:29,690
made between the experience but she's

1072
00:45:33,970 --> 00:45:31,160
one of the people who to this day says

1073
00:45:37,510 --> 00:45:33,980
it wasn't a near-death experience she

1074
00:45:39,790 --> 00:45:37,520
knew she wasn't gonna die but um you

1075
00:45:42,990 --> 00:45:39,800
know so none of the five none of the

1076
00:45:45,490 --> 00:45:43,000
five of my ten foregrounded informants

1077
00:45:49,090 --> 00:45:45,500
who sought some kind of counseling after

1078
00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:49,100
new to describe their presenting

1079
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:50,900
symptoms or whatever you call it in a

1080
00:45:54,850 --> 00:45:53,330
clinical context as related to their

1081
00:45:57,660 --> 00:45:54,860
near-death experience and then none of

1082
00:46:01,450 --> 00:45:57,670
their our mental health care clinicians

1083
00:46:03,970 --> 00:46:01,460
knew to connected either so there were

1084
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:03,980
all sorts of other kinds of diagnoses

1085
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:06,050
you know which is that whole medical

1086
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,270
education problem you know which leads

1087
00:46:12,730 --> 00:46:10,640
us back maybe to the group that you've

1088
00:46:14,590 --> 00:46:12,740
formed or the association that you've

1089
00:46:15,970 --> 00:46:14,600
formed tell us a little bit more about

1090
00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:15,980
that and particularly about this

1091
00:46:20,020 --> 00:46:18,230
conference this meeting that's coming up

1092
00:46:22,060 --> 00:46:20,030
in October again it's the american

1093
00:46:24,220 --> 00:46:22,070
center for the integration of

1094
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:24,230
spiritually transformed experiences

1095
00:46:28,180 --> 00:46:26,330
we'll certainly have a link up in the

1096
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:28,190
show notes to it but tell us a little

1097
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:30,530
bit about what's going on it's yeah it's

1098
00:46:37,630 --> 00:46:33,830
a CIS te so you can google that and we

1099
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:37,640
come up first what we're excited about

1100
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:39,110
this conference I'm very excited Bruce

1101
00:46:42,910 --> 00:46:40,610
Grayson is going to be our keynote

1102
00:46:43,310 --> 00:46:42,920
speaker and we have all new speakers

1103
00:46:45,980 --> 00:46:43,320
this year

1104
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:45,990
but what the conference focuses on are

1105
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:49,950
the therapeutic issues connected with

1106
00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:53,250
these kinds of experiences so what do

1107
00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:55,350
mental healthcare providers need to know

1108
00:47:01,250 --> 00:46:57,510
and it's really interesting because at

1109
00:47:02,750 --> 00:47:01,260
our first conference last year um sorry

1110
00:47:07,220 --> 00:47:02,760
I'm looking at my bookmarks menu right

1111
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:07,230
now to go to our assist website we have

1112
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:08,400
a lot of people coming to these

1113
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:11,250
conferences who are mental mental health

1114
00:47:16,460 --> 00:47:13,890
professionals who have had themselves

1115
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,470
had transformational experiences one way

1116
00:47:19,940 --> 00:47:18,480
or the other whether it was you know

1117
00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:19,950
yeah tell them tell us what are some of

1118
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:21,510
the kinds of transformational

1119
00:47:27,890 --> 00:47:23,850
experiences that you're typically you

1120
00:47:29,570 --> 00:47:27,900
know we're dealing with wow there's all

1121
00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:29,580
kinds of them I mean you know I mean

1122
00:47:32,810 --> 00:47:31,110
they're all kinds of triggers for these

1123
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:32,820
experiences we just realized early on

1124
00:47:36,830 --> 00:47:35,250
that many of the experiences being

1125
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:36,840
studied in near-death studies we

1126
00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:38,700
couldn't even really be sure of the

1127
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:40,560
clinical state of the of the person

1128
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:45,930
being study but let me see here there

1129
00:47:49,070 --> 00:47:47,490
are many types and many names for

1130
00:47:50,930 --> 00:47:49,080
experiences that can share common

1131
00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:50,940
features and be catalysts for spiritual

1132
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:53,700
transformation not just in DES but we

1133
00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:56,010
also say near-death like experiences

1134
00:48:00,200 --> 00:47:58,200
out-of-body experiences visions

1135
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:00,210
spiritual emergencies awakening

1136
00:48:03,860 --> 00:48:02,370
Kundalini experiences enlightenment

1137
00:48:06,170 --> 00:48:03,870
experiences probably the same thing

1138
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:06,180
other other terms exceptional human

1139
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:08,790
experiences pre-birth memories past life

1140
00:48:14,090 --> 00:48:11,370
experiences nearing death awareness

1141
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:14,100
which is a term that Maggie Callen

1142
00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:16,650
Kalinin and Patricia Kelly coined for

1143
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:18,660
their work with hospice patients where

1144
00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:20,670
they saw that people they called it

1145
00:48:23,780 --> 00:48:22,230
nearing death awareness because like

1146
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:23,790
word near-death experience would

1147
00:48:28,370 --> 00:48:26,580
typically happen all at one time as

1148
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:28,380
Maggie said to me once never sit in an

1149
00:48:31,790 --> 00:48:30,330
empty chair in a hospice bedroom until

1150
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:31,800
you make sure uncle Fred's not sitting

1151
00:48:35,210 --> 00:48:33,660
there apparently in the nearing death

1152
00:48:36,860 --> 00:48:35,220
awareness what they found was people

1153
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:36,870
would have many of the elements of

1154
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:39,510
Indies in a natural death trajectory

1155
00:48:43,610 --> 00:48:41,490
like in a hospice situation but they'd

1156
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:43,620
be spread out over a period of weeks or

1157
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:46,910
months so after death communications

1158
00:48:51,830 --> 00:48:48,930
empathic or shared near-death

1159
00:48:55,070 --> 00:48:51,840
experiences which is it moody who wrote

1160
00:48:56,510 --> 00:48:55,080
about that or Morse Moody at peak

1161
00:48:58,550 --> 00:48:56,520
experiences as

1162
00:49:00,620 --> 00:48:58,560
tes include erm a be called numinous

1163
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,630
noetic transcendence transpersonal

1164
00:49:07,850 --> 00:49:02,880
mystical anomalous religious paranormal

1165
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:07,860
I mean in some experiences occur after

1166
00:49:12,290 --> 00:49:09,870
meditation yoga drugs religious

1167
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:12,300
practices dance drumming since sensory

1168
00:49:18,620 --> 00:49:15,210
deprivation prayer sometimes they happen

1169
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:18,630
spontaneously personal trauma illness

1170
00:49:23,180 --> 00:49:20,880
distress crisis they can occur during

1171
00:49:26,420 --> 00:49:23,190
emotionally intense periods at what

1172
00:49:27,890 --> 00:49:26,430
point I read something in in the

1173
00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:27,900
literate near-death studies literature

1174
00:49:34,070 --> 00:49:29,430
that at some point someone had estimated

1175
00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:34,080
based on the incidence of different sort

1176
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:35,640
of clinical symptoms in relation to

1177
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:38,400
Indies that it looked like about seventy

1178
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:40,650
five percent of women's occurred over

1179
00:49:45,260 --> 00:49:43,590
childbirth related and about 75 percent

1180
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:45,270
of men's were cardiac related because

1181
00:49:50,930 --> 00:49:48,570
women actually who give birth come close

1182
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:50,940
to death earlier than men who don't give

1183
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:52,890
birth you know I think we don't realize

1184
00:49:57,590 --> 00:49:55,920
how close those two things are so

1185
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:57,600
there's lot there seem to be a lot of

1186
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:00,960
triggers now the thing is the most of

1187
00:50:06,530 --> 00:50:03,420
the research we've done has been on

1188
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:06,540
near-death experiences so there needs to

1189
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:09,510
be oh there's such a need for research

1190
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:11,760
on these kinds of experiences in other

1191
00:50:18,290 --> 00:50:15,930
context because for me sort of the two

1192
00:50:20,450 --> 00:50:18,300
earmarks for me of the near-death

1193
00:50:22,670 --> 00:50:20,460
experience are loss of fear of death

1194
00:50:26,330 --> 00:50:22,680
which in our culture is a monumental

1195
00:50:29,330 --> 00:50:26,340
thing to realize that dying did for

1196
00:50:32,780 --> 00:50:29,340
somebody and that sense of spiritual

1197
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:32,790
mission or life purpose so but we don't

1198
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:34,890
know enough about I mean even alien

1199
00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:37,730
encounter experiences you know I mean

1200
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:40,350
Ken ring found a lot of the same

1201
00:50:46,010 --> 00:50:43,530
aftereffect patterns with alien

1202
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:46,020
encounter experiences as with near-death

1203
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:48,210
experiences which we talked a little bit

1204
00:50:54,130 --> 00:50:52,290
about before so it's really a wide open

1205
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,140
field for research and thank God for

1206
00:50:58,970 --> 00:50:56,760
quantum mechanics thank god for going

1207
00:51:02,750 --> 00:50:58,980
that's funny thank God for quantum

1208
00:51:05,570 --> 00:51:02,760
mechanics that's sort of what a recent

1209
00:51:09,110 --> 00:51:05,580
brain mind research and you know this

1210
00:51:10,340 --> 00:51:09,120
whole growing body of knowledge we have

1211
00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:10,350
from quantum mechanics

1212
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:13,740
have both legitimated more that the

1213
00:51:18,530 --> 00:51:15,930
near-death experiencers worldview that

1214
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:18,540
you know there are more dimensions and I

1215
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:19,920
think we talked about this last time

1216
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,610
that ours our culture according to

1217
00:51:32,060 --> 00:51:25,920
Elizabeth's to Taurus have you had her

1218
00:51:35,630 --> 00:51:32,070
on yes fascinating person our culture

1219
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:35,640
has the fewest dimensions of any culture

1220
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:38,910
in its worldview of any culture studied

1221
00:51:42,890 --> 00:51:40,740
by by either anthropology or

1222
00:51:45,140 --> 00:51:42,900
evolutionary biology and I think that's

1223
00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:45,150
really interesting so now you have you

1224
00:51:47,330 --> 00:51:46,380
know quantum theories coming over here

1225
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:47,340
and saying well we've got to have at

1226
00:51:54,620 --> 00:51:51,510
least eleven dimensions and you know so

1227
00:51:56,930 --> 00:51:54,630
it you just sort of in brain mind

1228
00:51:59,210 --> 00:51:56,940
research which is which is Bruce Grayson

1229
00:52:02,360 --> 00:51:59,220
points out we do not have an explanation

1230
00:52:03,950 --> 00:52:02,370
for people you know reporting accurately

1231
00:52:06,260 --> 00:52:03,960
things that have happened when they were

1232
00:52:09,020 --> 00:52:06,270
flatlined because that does not fit our

1233
00:52:11,060 --> 00:52:09,030
material model of the brain being the

1234
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:11,070
transmitter of consciousness rather than

1235
00:52:15,860 --> 00:52:13,410
a receiver right well I mean we keep

1236
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:15,870
flipping back and forth between yeah

1237
00:52:22,490 --> 00:52:17,970
trying to explain things from this

1238
00:52:24,670 --> 00:52:22,500
perspective yes I think you need I want

1239
00:52:27,140 --> 00:52:24,680
the but I want the culture of of

1240
00:52:30,050 --> 00:52:27,150
near-death experiencers to become

1241
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:30,060
visible because I can can I can envision

1242
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:34,710
just as cold and value-neutral and bias

1243
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:38,040
free a worldview emerging out of quantum

1244
00:52:43,130 --> 00:52:41,520
physics that still allows us to

1245
00:52:45,590 --> 00:52:43,140
completely trash the planet and each

1246
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:45,600
other I agree

1247
00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:53,280
so yeah really occurred to me last night

1248
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:54,390
when I was think about the interview

1249
00:52:58,910 --> 00:52:56,370
today that like yeah you could bring

1250
00:53:00,770 --> 00:52:58,920
yourselves uh we could develop for

1251
00:53:05,180 --> 00:53:00,780
ourselves and expanded worldview but

1252
00:53:07,220 --> 00:53:05,190
that just almost lets us you know trash

1253
00:53:10,370 --> 00:53:07,230
everything out here with greater sense

1254
00:53:12,140 --> 00:53:10,380
of impunity yeah I totally agree and I

1255
00:53:15,260 --> 00:53:12,150
think it's something we have to be very

1256
00:53:17,540 --> 00:53:15,270
careful that we don't advocate for I

1257
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:17,550
call it be the backdoor materialism you

1258
00:53:23,549 --> 00:53:21,330
know yeah say more that's a good that's

1259
00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:23,559
I like that well I

1260
00:53:29,789 --> 00:53:27,430
think unfortunately even very valid

1261
00:53:32,969 --> 00:53:29,799
worthy causes like environmental

1262
00:53:35,789 --> 00:53:32,979
concerns have an element of backdoor

1263
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:35,799
materialism to them because they suggest

1264
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:38,890
that we can do oh we've made a mistake

1265
00:53:44,959 --> 00:53:41,680
but that's okay we can fix it bust by

1266
00:53:47,749 --> 00:53:44,969
doing more convert that coal to

1267
00:53:50,849 --> 00:53:47,759
hydroelectric or whatever when a

1268
00:53:53,299 --> 00:53:50,859
spiritual first perspective and I mean

1269
00:53:57,449 --> 00:53:53,309
that in a non-religious sense but in a

1270
00:54:01,559 --> 00:53:57,459
whatever that other meaning of the world

1271
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:01,569
yes might suggest that it's not about

1272
00:54:06,539 --> 00:54:04,089
that and this is what Indy ears really

1273
00:54:08,579 --> 00:54:06,549
tell us right they come back and say no

1274
00:54:09,779 --> 00:54:08,589
no no it's really not about that if you

1275
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:09,789
want to get out there in march in

1276
00:54:14,489 --> 00:54:13,089
protest that's okay but what it would

1277
00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:14,499
really was about this my understanding

1278
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:16,689
was you know when you smiled at that

1279
00:54:19,699 --> 00:54:17,920
person when you're crossing the street

1280
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:19,709
you don't know what that did but that

1281
00:54:23,699 --> 00:54:21,729
made a connection with them that

1282
00:54:25,799 --> 00:54:23,709
affected their whole life and that's all

1283
00:54:28,259 --> 00:54:25,809
you need to worry about anyway because

1284
00:54:30,769 --> 00:54:28,269
this idea you have about time and about

1285
00:54:33,449 --> 00:54:30,779
before and about Afrin about later is

1286
00:54:36,269 --> 00:54:33,459
really kind of not the way that it is so

1287
00:54:38,099 --> 00:54:36,279
I don't know it hasn't made me any less

1288
00:54:41,609 --> 00:54:38,109
of an activist I'll tell you know what I

1289
00:54:43,769 --> 00:54:41,619
mean no no nor has it made me it's made

1290
00:54:47,789 --> 00:54:43,779
me more of an activist right it's made

1291
00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:47,799
me much more humble about all right on

1292
00:54:56,449 --> 00:54:51,160
what that activism means and - it's made

1293
00:54:59,579 --> 00:54:56,459
me reflect on what are the underlying

1294
00:55:02,609 --> 00:54:59,589
motivations and needs that I have to act

1295
00:55:05,269 --> 00:55:02,619
you know right again it can get very

1296
00:55:09,419 --> 00:55:05,279
religious very quick it can get very

1297
00:55:11,219 --> 00:55:09,429
Jesus in that you know the only true act

1298
00:55:14,249 --> 00:55:11,229
that you can do is when you and I don't

1299
00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:14,259
not enough of a scholar on that to know

1300
00:55:18,419 --> 00:55:15,910
but you know when you totally are

1301
00:55:19,890 --> 00:55:18,429
unattached which is very Buddhist thing

1302
00:55:22,589 --> 00:55:19,900
to the outcome you know no one knows

1303
00:55:24,449 --> 00:55:22,599
your charity that's the only charity you

1304
00:55:26,189 --> 00:55:24,459
know well who can really do that you

1305
00:55:28,410 --> 00:55:26,199
know but you just say the same thing

1306
00:55:31,589 --> 00:55:28,420
when you do and you're totally not

1307
00:55:35,099 --> 00:55:31,599
attached to what you're doing then you

1308
00:55:37,380 --> 00:55:35,109
know that's the only true the true doing

1309
00:55:40,170 --> 00:55:37,390
that you can do again I don't know I

1310
00:55:42,059 --> 00:55:40,180
yeah I hear you I like that I like that

1311
00:55:45,210 --> 00:55:42,069
idea that just you know a little more

1312
00:55:47,759 --> 00:55:45,220
humility about what we can do or what we

1313
00:55:51,599 --> 00:55:47,769
think we can do and it is really true

1314
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:51,609
that again and again you hear you hear

1315
00:55:57,089 --> 00:55:54,970
experiencers say adult experience here's

1316
00:55:59,940 --> 00:55:57,099
I mean there was no before for me so you

1317
00:56:02,279 --> 00:55:59,950
know um say that you know it's not those

1318
00:56:04,289 --> 00:56:02,289
big accomplishments that you thought you

1319
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:04,299
were supposed to set set out to have

1320
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:07,930
that matter it's it's what you do

1321
00:56:12,839 --> 00:56:10,720
everyday as you suggested before that

1322
00:56:16,049 --> 00:56:12,849
you the person that you smile at that

1323
00:56:20,430 --> 00:56:16,059
how you are on a day to day basis step

1324
00:56:25,650 --> 00:56:20,440
that really really matters well Suzanne

1325
00:56:28,229 --> 00:56:25,660
this is just an amazing body of work

1326
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:28,239
that you've compiled and are continuing

1327
00:56:33,329 --> 00:56:31,119
to compile isert there's a book here so

1328
00:56:35,249 --> 00:56:33,339
let's get that book out Suzanne so we

1329
00:56:37,799 --> 00:56:35,259
can share that with even more people do

1330
00:56:41,009 --> 00:56:37,809
you have any prospects for writing a

1331
00:56:44,519 --> 00:56:41,019
book on this it's just time mainly you

1332
00:56:47,609 --> 00:56:44,529
know I'm one of the army of non-tenured

1333
00:56:50,569 --> 00:56:47,619
a non-tenure-track faculty that's now

1334
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:50,579
the majority on our college campuses yes

1335
00:56:55,950 --> 00:56:53,680
you know and I'm so glad that this is

1336
00:56:57,630 --> 00:56:55,960
you know receiving attention and thank

1337
00:56:59,069 --> 00:56:57,640
goodness the University of Maryland is a

1338
00:57:00,690 --> 00:56:59,079
little bit ahead of the curve and in

1339
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:00,700
trying to deal with it but what it

1340
00:57:06,269 --> 00:57:03,130
really means is we teach the courses

1341
00:57:09,630 --> 00:57:06,279
that have the most grading and take the

1342
00:57:11,339 --> 00:57:09,640
most work so finding time is really

1343
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:11,349
difficult right now I'm just working on

1344
00:57:15,930 --> 00:57:13,359
revising the presentation I gave it the

1345
00:57:18,809 --> 00:57:15,940
last assistants conference because it's

1346
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,819
going to be a we're gonna have a special

1347
00:57:22,140 --> 00:57:20,319
edition of the journal in near-death

1348
00:57:25,019 --> 00:57:22,150
studies for the papers from our first

1349
00:57:27,630 --> 00:57:25,029
conference so that had that's taken it's

1350
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:27,640
a good time today but I'm just was just

1351
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:28,960
looking for this quote while you were

1352
00:57:33,390 --> 00:57:31,599
talking something I've found and shared

1353
00:57:36,089 --> 00:57:33,400
on Facebook the other day called the

1354
00:57:38,579 --> 00:57:36,099
case for hope if you take the long view

1355
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:38,589
you'll see how startling Lee how

1356
00:57:44,940 --> 00:57:41,410
unexpectedly but regularly things do

1357
00:57:47,279 --> 00:57:44,950
change not by magic by the incremental

1358
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:47,289
effect of countless acts of courage love

1359
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:49,930
and commitment the small drops that wear

1360
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:51,230
away stones in car

1361
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:53,930
new landscapes and sometimes by torrents

1362
00:57:58,480 --> 00:57:55,730
a popular will that changed the world

1363
00:58:00,010 --> 00:57:58,490
suddenly to say that is not to say that

1364
00:58:02,020 --> 00:58:00,020
it will all come out fine in the end

1365
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,030
regardless I'm just telling you that

1366
00:58:07,420 --> 00:58:04,400
everything is in motion and sometimes we

1367
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:07,430
are ourselves that movement great who's

1368
00:58:11,590 --> 00:58:07,970
that bye

1369
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:11,600
this is Rebecca Solnit in an article

1370
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:14,480
called the case for hope continued Sol

1371
00:58:20,020 --> 00:58:17,690
NIT well I'll tell you what dr. Gordon

1372
00:58:21,849 --> 00:58:20,030
that might be a great way to leave it

1373
00:58:23,740 --> 00:58:21,859
it's been a great pleasure having you on

1374
00:58:26,290 --> 00:58:23,750
skeptic Oh best of luck with all that

1375
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:26,300
work we'll certainly have a link up to

1376
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,609
the assist conference coming up in

1377
00:58:35,740 --> 00:58:31,040
October thanks again for joining me on

1378
00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:35,750
skeptical it was delight thanks again to

1379
00:58:40,030 --> 00:58:37,280
dr. Gordon for joining me today on

1380
00:58:42,580 --> 00:58:40,040
skeptic oh I do have one question that I

1381
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:42,590
tee up as a result of this interview and

1382
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:46,450
that is what areas of near-death

1383
00:58:53,260 --> 00:58:50,330
experience science of the phenomena do

1384
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:53,270
you think offer the most promise for

1385
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:55,730
further research so Suzanne and I

1386
00:59:00,640 --> 00:58:58,250
touched on some of the unanswered

1387
00:59:03,010 --> 00:59:00,650
research questions that are out there

1388
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:03,020
but I'd be interested in hearing what

1389
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:05,810
you think are the most pressing research

1390
00:59:09,970 --> 00:59:08,000
questions it really could be tackled if

1391
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:09,980
someone wanted to put their mind to it

1392
00:59:14,410 --> 00:59:12,770
so give me your thoughts on that the

1393
00:59:18,910 --> 00:59:14,420
place to do it is at The Skeptical

1394
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:18,920
website at ske P tik o dot com you can

1395
00:59:23,490 --> 00:59:21,290
leave a comment right there or bounce on

1396
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:23,500
over to our forum where I'm often

1397
00:59:29,170 --> 00:59:26,480
responding to listeners comments and

1398
00:59:31,690 --> 00:59:29,180
ideas that's available through a link

1399
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:31,700
from the website or drop me an e-mail or

1400
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:34,400
connect with me on Facebook while you're

1401
00:59:38,980 --> 00:59:36,170
at the website be sure to check out our

1402
00:59:42,220 --> 00:59:38,990
over 200 previous shows of skeptic oh

1403
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:42,230
all available there for free for you to

1404
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:44,930
dive into well that's gonna do it for

1405
00:59:50,290 --> 00:59:47,330
this episode of skeptic oh I have some

1406
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,300
great shows coming up a couple of twists

1407
00:59:54,550 --> 00:59:52,640
and turns that all that I'll leave just

1408
00:59:56,190 --> 00:59:54,560
kind of hanging out there but I do hope

1409
00:59:59,710 --> 00:59:56,200
you'll stay with me for all of that